Masturbate without shame or guilt

JOE KORT 00:05
Eric, hello everyone. Welcome to Smart sex, smart love. When talking about how sex goes beyond the taboo, and talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon, my guest today is Dr Eric sprenkle, a professor of clinical psychology and the co director of the sexuality studies program at Minas, Minnesota State University Mankato, he received his doctorate in clinical sexology from Xavier University in 2009 completed a post doctoral fellowship at the University of Minnesota Medical Schools, Institute for Sexual and gender health in 2011 and was awarded tenure in the psychology department at Minnesota State in 2017 Doctor sprinkle is the author of the recently published book DIY, the wonderfully weird history and science of masturbation. Today, the topic of conversation with Doctor sprinkle is Go fuck yourself the masturbation episode. Welcome Eric.

Eric Sprankle 01:00
Thanks for having me,

JOE KORT 01:01
Joe. Yeah, I’m glad to have you here. We were talking before how it’s we almost feel like we know each other because of Instagram, but I feel like you have such a great sense of humor. I look if people will do this at the end, but people need to follow you on Instagram and even Twitter. You’re very funny.

Eric Sprankle 01:16
Thank you. Yeah.

JOE KORT 01:19
So all right, before we begin. People would probably like to find out more about the unique title you chose for this pot for this podcast. Can you shed light on this?

Eric Sprankle 01:28
Oh yeah, the Go fuck yourself piece. Yeah. That was, that was just the working title of my book in early development stages. I’m talking like even before I had a literary agent and I was just putting together the proposal. And I just thought that that title just kind of captured the essence of the book, but then kind of realized the practicality of, you know, submitting that to agents and then subsequently to publishers may not be the best title to go with. And so that’s when I switched it to DIY.

JOE KORT 01:55
Yeah. Isn’t that too bad? Because although I think some titles don’t, some book titles have that in, in there

Eric Sprankle 02:01
they do, yeah. I mean, even like bestsellers, of like the the subtle art of not giving a fuck. By Mark Manson, yeah, so it was there, but I this my first book, an unknown author, right? For the most part, coming out of the gate was something it could have prevented it from being on shelves. So that was the answer. Well,

JOE KORT 02:20
especially the topic, right, sexuality, masturbation, right? I totally get that. Yeah. All right. So let’s speaking of the book. You talk about the Devil or Satan. What role does the belief in the devil have in shaping attitudes about masturbation? A

Eric Sprankle 02:35
lot. Surprisingly, I had already done some academic research on Satanists and masturbation. So I knew I wanted to include just kind of, like that really niche kind of topic in there and the data, at least in a very, very small, brief section. But I thought I was gonna have to, like, shoehorn it in and just like, it didn’t really fit well, but surprisingly, it fit really nicely, because There ended up being, like, this theme of the devil’s influence throughout the book. And for those who think masturbation is a sin, there’s belief that the devil influences people to masturbate, kind of like whispering in your ear to tempt you things like that. And then there’s also a belief that masturbation is some sort of sexual black magic that will open portals to the demonic realm and let demons into your life. So just like wild beliefs that were really fun to read about and write about.

JOE KORT 03:24
You know, sometimes I’m so happy that I’m Jewish, because everything that I was taught was in Hebrew, and I didn’t understand the word they said. So if they said anything, I didn’t catch it. Yeah,

Eric Sprankle 03:33
I didn’t get much from within Judaism about the devil. I do mention Judaism and kind of like interpretations of the story of Onan and everything, but it’s pretty sans satanic,

JOE KORT 03:44
yeah. Well, it reminds me. I’ve had some Orthodox Jewish clients where, because masturbation is forbidden, they find a way to, you know, masturbate between pillows or against their beds, and then that’s the only way that they can do it. They can’t masturbate with their hand. Have you heard of that before? Yeah,

Eric Sprankle 04:01
and that’s the great thing. Funny thing about religion is that there’s always loopholes, right, that you can find and create and justify for yourself. And sexuality is definitely one of those biggest ones that it’s like, it’s really important for for you and find a way to kind of express your desires. And yeah, so you just kind of find these loopholes that make sense to you. It’s a little bit of mental gymnastics, but that’s, that’s what religion is, right? It’s just kind of finding a belief system that essentially works well with your life, right,

JOE KORT 04:30
right? All right, a subculture that gets explored in your book is men who go off to jack off clubs and masturbate with other men. Yet it’s reported some of these men are heterosexual. Will you talk about this and how is this possible? Sure,

Eric Sprankle 04:43
I know you’ve talked about how men who have sex with men are not always driven by sexual orientation or sexual attraction to men or masculinity. So it’s pretty much the same thing here that they’re in the minority, right? Estimated by Jack Off Club organizers to be only about like 10% of their members. So they’re the. The small minority in the group. But for these guys, a few things can be going on, why they enjoy going to jack off clubs despite being heterosexual. So one, it could just be fetishistic, where the arousal is focused on the penis itself and less about the person attached to the penis. Could be exhibitionistic or voyeuristic, where the arousal is what is from watching others or being watched while you’re masturbate, regardless of the gender or the other person. Or it could just be a novel situation, right? It’s, it’s not uncommon for teen boys to masturbate together, and it doesn’t really have anything to do with their sexual orientation at that time. So it could just be reminiscent about those early experiences of partaking in a just a fun, enjoyable activity with some like minded bros.

JOE KORT 05:43
This is so validating to me, or no idea, because, you know, I talk about it with confidence. I know what I’m talking about, but, you know, I did a lot of kickback, a lot of pushback, and so just having you a professor and, you know, schooled and researched around this, it makes it more validating,

Eric Sprankle 06:00
sure? Yeah. I mean, we think of sexual orientation in very simplistic terms, but it’s very complex, and you always have to, like, hone in on what is actually the target or object of arousal. And a lot of times it isn’t about the other person’s like, gender and how it’s expressed in terms of like, masculinity or femininity, and more about the specific thing within the sexualized behavior or context. And actually, that’s what’s driving the behavior and driving the arousal. And it has nothing to do about nothing to do about gender, and therefore had nothing to do about sexual orientation.

JOE KORT 06:32
I had a podcast a few episodes before where we talked about these jack off groups, and he and I wonder if you know about this too, where there are rules in these groups like not to touch and not touching below the waist. Is that true? Right? Yeah,

Eric Sprankle 06:47
there’s strict rules. It’s different from bath houses. There are a lot of different rules. It’s focused on masturbation as the primary behavior. They do have rules of like no lips below the hips and nothing goes into anything, things like that. So like, kissing is allowed, and like stimulation of, like chests and nipples and stuff like that. That’s fine if someone wants to partake in that. But yeah, it is still kind of like the focus is on masturbation, and that’s the that’s the goal. And there’s other, you know, fun rules too, about like, where semen can go and can’t go. And they have this. Some clubs have different wristbands of what that communicates to other people, whether you’re willing to, like, have your penis touched or not, you know, just things like that,

JOE KORT 07:31
and no friendly fire, right,

Eric Sprankle 07:33
right? Yeah, yeah.

JOE KORT 07:36
No, that’s I had no idea how many gay men and even bi men went to these groups until I coined the term side and I started this side group on Facebook, and we have like 8000 members. And I can’t tell you how many times somebody comes in and says they like to go to these things, because it’s all outer course, and they prefer that over the intercourse.

Eric Sprankle 07:52
Yeah, absolutely it can be a primary sexual outlet for for a lot of guys who do prioritize solo sexuality, non penetrative sexual behavior, and that this can be like their their focal point and how they express themselves sexually, and it’s a really good fit.

JOE KORT 08:08
So some people seem to enjoy sticking objects inside themselves to masturbate. Can this be done safely? And what are some cautionary considerations?

Eric Sprankle 08:16
Yeah, I had fun with this section for sure. People love sticking random objects into their their rectum, their vagina and even their urethra, and that’s one that a lot of people forget about, but pretty much everything that has been on a wedding registry has been in a man’s butthole. So we’re talking like every like household object imaginable. So how do we know this? This isn’t just speculation. It’s because there are dozens of academic articles and medical journals detailing case reports where this practice has gone awry and the person has ended up in the ER, and then the subject of a very embarrassing case report about what they the physicians pulled out of their body so it can be done safely, so not everyone’s going to end up in the ER. So that’s good. So you just need to make sure that your eyes aren’t bigger than your anus, so making sure that you’re starting off slow and that the object can be inserted safely, size wise, into your body, especially if you’re inexperienced and start small. There’s also things of just making sure that the object has a flared base or a pull string or some other device that it cannot get lost inside of your body. That’s a common reason when people end up in the ER. And then also just making sure that the object is sterile or sanitized, it can’t break, doesn’t have any sharp edges or splinters, and just making sure that you’re very stocked up on lube and use it liberally. And

JOE KORT 09:36
then, can you talk about sounding? Because a lot of listeners won’t even know what that

Eric Sprankle 09:41
means. Yeah, sounding is just the insertion of objects into your urethra, and so all the same rules apply, and making sure it’s not too big, especially if this is your first time, making sure that it has some type of flared bass or a pull string. A lot of them do not like sounding. Kits are essentially just metal rods, so you just have to be very, very careful of like how far you’re putting them in to. Your urethra and making sure that they’re sterile and, you know, smooth and lots and lots of loop.

JOE KORT 10:07
Do women do it too?

Eric Sprankle 10:09
Yep, yeah. It doesn’t know any gender. It is more common among men, or at least that’s who end up much more so in the in the ER, especially with anal insertion, rectal insertion of objects. It’s something that’s like 30 to one in terms of more men to women. But no, it’s not limited to just men. Women engage in these different types of insertion practices as well. You

JOE KORT 10:33
know, till just now, I never even thought about women doing it. That’s where my was a real question, because I’ve seen it online, or I’ve even seen it in porn. One time I was on chatter bait, and I saw some guy doing it, and I probably was a little squeamish when we first started talking about it. If people saw me, it’s not judgmental. I just I’m squeamish about things. That whole thing, even being catheterized, makes me Sure, yeah.

Eric Sprankle 10:53
I mean, for most people, I would say, like, you would get that kind of like, squeamish response discussed evangelist shock, because it is a rare behavior, certainly not uncommon or unheard of, but certainly, certainly something that not the majority of the population is going to be participating in because of that response, which is understandable.

JOE KORT 11:12
Yeah, they don’t talk about it. Okay? A lot of people talk about and are concerned about porn induced erectile dysfunction, which is called pied, p, i, E, D, online. Anyways, can you shed some light on the reality of this phenomenon?

Eric Sprankle 11:26
Yeah, so this term is so common out there that is almost just accepted as fact, and, like, it’s a real diagnosis. So I’m answering these questions a lot from, like, students and other people, just like, you know, just accept assuming that this is a real thing. And like wanting to shed some light on the reality of it, the reality is that it’s it’s not a real thing. The the empirical data have never established a connection between porn watching and erectile difficulties. So at best, you have a couple of case reports that detail some connection, believed connection, but certainly not empirical, like group data on it, and people are convinced that it’s happening to them. So they’ll show up in clinics saying, like, I’m watching porn too much or whatever, and it’s impacting my ability to get or maintain an erection with a partner like so I need to stop watching porn. So they’ve made the connection for themselves. So it’s certainly a reality in that way, the subjective experience of putting two variables together of one cause and the other. However, what’s likely happening is just big culprit is just performance anxiety, and that there’s no anxiety alone masturbating to porn. So your penis is operating the way that you want it to, getting an erection, staying hard until orgasm. No problem there. But with a partner, there’s other dynamics to, you know, to factor in, and can create some anxiety for the person, and anxiety works against your penile functioning, so you can have erectile difficulties because of that anxiety, not because you watch porn. It’s just that the porn watching doesn’t have any anxiety attached to it. Other things that can be more of a causal explanation than than porn causing some Ed problems with the partner, would be it’s more about the masturbation than the porn watching. And so there can be something called idiosyncratic masturbation. And this is when someone just has a kind of a unique masturbation style that doesn’t translate well to partnered sex. So sometimes, if it’s like a strong grip, it’s called, like death grip syndrome, that over time, that your body just becomes accustomed to, like, this very tight grip on your penis while you’re masturbating. And you know, oral sex, anal sex, vaginal sex, does not, you know, provide that type of stimulation, and so your penis is not responding with an erection. And so you think it’s like, Oh, it must be caused by the porn that I’m watching, because I have no problem masturbating and getting an erection while I’m watching porn. But it’s not working with a partner. It’s like, well, it’s actually the type of masturbation that you’re you’re training your body to respond to that your partner just can’t replicate that well. And death grip is just one of those examples I’ve seen times when guys have, like, laid down flat on their stomach and have just kind of grinded their penis up against like the back of their fists, like on their knuckles. It’s like that works for them. It’s stimulating, it’s arousing. It easily leads to erection and orgasm. An anus in a mouth and a vagina do not feel that way. So their penis is not responding in an erection when they’re with a partner. So again, nothing to do with porn more about just how they’re conditioning their body to respond to masturbation. And then the last thing, which I would say is maybe the rarest out of the three, but still something that would be worthy to explore, is what kind of porn are they watching, and is there something within that porn, the content, the themes, the topics, the behaviors, that is more of a kink or fetishistic for them that they would need in real life in order to become aroused. And so there’s just this discrepancy between what they like in fantasy and porn and what they’re actually getting in real life. Now, for the majority of people, there can be a discrepancy, and there’s no problem. We have a wide range of what turns us on. And we can have our fantasy, and we can have what we engage in actually in real life, and everything works out fine. But for some have a they have a more narrow kind of arousal template. And there are, they are more fetishistic, so they may need certain elements that they find arousing in pornography that they just aren’t getting in real life. And so then the focus would be, how can we get those elements also in real life, and that would actually lead to an erection.

JOE KORT 15:23
So then the question then becomes and thank you for all of us, because I’m sure you and I, I know I do get a ton of these questions all the time, yeah, the guys want to say, they’ll say to me, what’s the remedy? Should I just stop watching porn? No,

Eric Sprankle 15:36
because it’s largely not to have anything do with the pornography, right? So my focus is always similar to what we talk with with women. It’s interesting, like, kind of gender differences that we have here. So if a woman comes in concerned that she’s not able to be orgasmic with a partner, but she is able to be orgasmic through masturbation, like with the use of a vibrator, we don’t say stop using the vibrator, right? And just focus on trying to have an orgasm through penile, vaginal intercourse, and try to do that only, right? We say no, like, Okay, you found something that works well for you. Your body responds well to clitoral stimulation with a vibrator. How can we get that type of stimulation when you’re with a partner? That’s the goal, to bring masturbation into the partnered life, or the partnered sex life, to make that more pleasurable, not to take away the pleasure from the masturbation. We do the opposite with guys. A lot of the times we view it like, okay, what are you doing with masturbation that’s not working with partnered sex. So you need to stop what you’re doing with masturbation in order to be better with partnered sex. So what if we apply that, you know, some consistency there across the genders, of like, No, you found something that works well for you alone and solo. How can you bring those elements into your sex life with partners, whether that is something that you’re watching in pornography, whether that is some type of unique stimulation that you’re providing yourself on your penis, how can you bring those elements that are working so well for you and are pleasurable and leading to erection and orgasm now with a partner, and that requires a lot of like, vulnerability and sharing, like, you know, hidden arousals and different unique ways that you like to be touched, and requiring that communication, and that’s the therapeutic issue, and not trying to just kind of, you know, porn is bad to ruin your life. You need to focus on prioritizing your sex life with your partner. That’s that should be the focus of your life. It’s like, no, let’s, let’s merge these two worlds. They can they can coexist pretty well.

JOE KORT 17:22
Now they’re going to ask people will still be thinking, Well, should I just stop masturbating

Eric Sprankle 17:27
for a while? Yeah, now, like, that’s not really doing much either. Like, unless you’re trying to engage in partnered sexual behavior within your refractory period, whatever that may be for yourself, and it’s different for everybody. It can be, like, a couple of minutes, for some guys, up to a couple of days. And you’re trying after you masturbated to orgasm and are unable to have another erection in a certain amount of time. If you’re trying to have partnered sex within that time. Yeah, that can be a problem. You may need to kind of pace yourself with masturbation, or just time it’s a little bit better and have an open, you know, communication with your partner, of like, when are we more likely to have sex, and how does that line up with when I want to have, you know, time to myself to masturbate, but otherwise, you know, if you’re not working within that refractory period, it’s really not about kind of like rationing your orgasms. It’s more about dealing with the other things that are prohibiting or making it more difficult to achieve an erection, things like performance anxiety, things like unrealistic expectations with the partner not having the right type of stimulation, whether that’s the type the direct stimulation on the penis, or some type of erotic variable that needs to be included in the partnered sex, those things can be focused on much better than trying to just abstain from masturbation from a period of time, because that’s not going to get rid of the other issues. I

JOE KORT 18:41
can’t wait to have clients coming in at my group practice and my own practice and refer them to this podcast. This is what they need to hear. You’re saying. It’s so so well. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, all right, so chapter nine in your book is titled, till death. Do Us Part successful aging assisted living and romantic necrophilia. What is romantic necrophilia? And will you talk a little bit about successful aging?

Eric Sprankle 19:05
Sure, romantic, romantic necrophilia is just a term that I made up. It’s really like, if there’s any kind of overarching like narrative arch, so to speak, or arc in the book, it’s developmental, you know, masturbation across the lifespan. Chapter One focuses on childhood development. Chapter nine focuses on older adults. And I started off with chapter one, kind of even focusing on the the ultrasound evidence of fetuses masturbating. So the thought was like, well, if masturbation exists even before we are born, does it continue in some way after we die, right? Just to kind of have the bookend of the life experience. Well, it doesn’t, you know, continue after we actually die, but it can continue in a certain way, especially for our loved ones, in these kind of unique ways. And keep in mind, this is not going to be for everyone. This is more just kind of these interesting tales that exist out here. I’m not trying to, like, recommend, like, oh yeah, everybody should be into this, and you’re weird. If you’re not, there’s a company. Based out of the UK that can make sex dolls that look like your deceased loved one. And so if you are interested in having continued sexual relations with a doll that reminds you of your deceased loved one, there is a company in the UK that does that. And then there is also a Swedish artist that developed, like this memento box that has, you know, a little, you know, iPod player, or something like an mp three player that can play some music that reminds you of your, you know, deceased loved one. There’s a little spritzer bottle in there for maybe some perfume or cologne to remind you. So, just kind of like a multi sensory experience of just kind of mementos, right? Also within that is a glass vibrator. And in the vibrator is a tiny gold urn that can hold 21 grams of cremated ashes, if your if your deceased loved one was cremated, and some of their ashes can be in that urn, and then in the vibrator that can be used during masturbation again. Now, whether people are actually doing this or these people are just creating kind of these devices to open up the conversation that we don’t like having about death and sexuality and grief, and when is the appropriate time to have, like sexual feelings again? When is it appropriate to masturbate to after the loss of a loved one? You know, there’s no etiquette attached to this. We don’t like having these conversations, but our desires do not completely go away. They’re going to be there. It’s more about like, having the conversations of like, what do we do with this information? How much can I integrate my solo sexuality into what I used to have with a partner, if at all, if I desire that, if not. You know, it’s just kind of giving permission to kind of explore some of these very, very taboo topics at this intersection of death and sexuality. Now, the successful aging piece was just more in response to the belief among a lot of physicians around the late 1800s that masturbation was incompatible with successful aging, in the sense that masturbation would prematurely age you, and that it would lead to a premature death. And one of my favorite people to explore for the for this chapter was Dr Emery Abbey. He was a urologist in Buffalo during this time in the late 19th century, and in his book, he wrote about a masturbator that it would lead him into, I’m just going to quote it here, into a premature grave loaded with violent forms of disease, with debasement of the human soul and the mind filled with obscenity and beastliness. And so this just belief that, you know, if you masturbate, you’re going to just age yourself very, very quickly. So if you’re young, you’re in your 40s, you know you’re essentially aging yourself to your 70s while you’re in your 40s, and you’re just gonna lead yourself to an early grave. And none of that’s true, by the way, in case I didn’t have to point that out, but

JOE KORT 22:51
wow, it’s fascinating, though. Now the listeners are fascinated as they’re listening to you, and there’s a section in your book where you talk about unique ways in which some people masturbate, including sucking their own penis. Is this a common practice for gays, and are there unique ways you’d like to discuss?

Eric Sprankle 23:06
Well, it’s certainly not common successfully, commonly tried. Yes, but there’s no prevalence data to suggest, like, how many people actually do this, or are able to do this? Kinsey was really kind of the only one that even speculated, percentage wise of how many people could actually do that, and he put it at point 0.3% of men have both the flexibility and necessary penile length to pull off this pretty fascinating feat. But no, it’s pretty rare, and it only showed up in my literature review, in some medical journals dating back to, like, the 1930s where it’s really treated as kind of like this, this freak show that this one guy there was a forensic case. He was arrested for a lot of different types of sexual assaults, and he had this whole, like, you know, pretty lengthy psychiatric history as well. But the whole case report focused on this one thing that just really fascinated all their all the his psychiatrists, and that was his ability and his compulsion, really, to suck his own penis. And so it was just viewed as kind of like this, you know, freak show kind of novelty kind of act. And often, you know, speculated that it was, you know, the extreme form of narcissism, because it forms like a literal ring of narcissism, and that it’s definitely a behavior driven by like latent homosexuality, things like that, and even masturbation by hand, is viewed sometimes as an expression of latent masturbate or latent homosexuality, because it’s a man holding a penis, and that’s gay, right? So it’s really no different than that. That’s that ability, if somebody has the gifts, anatomical gifts, to be able to pull that off. It says nothing about their narcissism or or their sexual orientation, but it does still, it is still kind of viewed as kind of like this Sideshow act. And you know, it’s no surprise that we had those rumors going around in the 1990s like Marilyn Manson removed his ribs so he could. Suck his own penis. It’s like, well, if we think, like a shock rocker is going to be doing that, that’s definitely kind of how we view this behavior. But it’s really not indicative of anything severe or psychologically wrong with somebody.

JOE KORT 25:12
Your book is, like a million Mythbusters.

Eric Sprankle 25:14
It is. Yeah, that’s what I tried it to be. And

JOE KORT 25:17
I do know I believe this, and I don’t know if you do. If most guys could suck their own penis, they would,

Eric Sprankle 25:22
oh absolutely yeah. With Yeah, 100% we would see so much absenteeism from work and everything. Yeah, it would. It would definitely take up at a lot of people’s time. Yeah, it would

JOE KORT 25:33
all right. What other messages would you like to leave our listeners with about you, your work, your book, anything,

Eric Sprankle 25:39
yeah, just the biggest thing with the book. I didn’t set out for it to be this way. I really just wanted it to kind of like debunk a lot of the myths that we’re still circulating today and realizing that, you know, it’s the same myths that we’ve been dealing with for the past several 100 years. But really, it’s really just kind of focusing on that masturbation is just this moment of pleasure, right? Nothing more, nothing nothing less. We don’t have to vilify it in the sense that it’s not going to be harmful to your body. There’s no evidence to suggest that. But we also don’t have to put it up on this pedestal of something that we have to do for our overall health and wellness. It’s really not having that impact on our body either. It’s just a moment of pleasure, and that’s good enough. It’s

JOE KORT 26:18
a great, great, great message. It’s been a pleasure having you on my show, Eric, how can people find you on the internet or anywhere?

Eric Sprankle 26:26
Sure I’m at Dr sprankle.com, and on social media, Instagram and Twitter. At Dr sprenkle,

JOE KORT 26:33
I can’t recommend enough people joining your pages because you’re funny. You find things that I don’t ever see Twitter or on Instagram or anywhere, and it just I laugh out loud, literally. It’s very entertaining but educational as well. Appreciate that. Welcome. All right, so if you can, you can hear more of my podcast at Smart sex, smart love.com, and you can also follow me on Twitter, Tiktok, Instagram and Facebook. That’s at Dr Joe court, D, R, J, o, e, K, O, R, T, but then you can also go to joecourt.com where my podcast is also available, and you can learn more about what’s going on in my practice. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next time. Stay safe and stay healthy.