Feet are hot and sexy! A fetish dating back to medieval times

JOE KORT 0:00
Adam, hello. Welcome to Smart sex, smart love, where talking about sex goes beyond the taboo and talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon. My guest today is Adam Smith, a writer and Podcast Producer whose work focuses on sex, queer identity, LGBTQ, plus lives history art and desire. He’s the author of soul mates, a history of our fetish for feet and deep sniff, a history of paupers and queer futures, which won the Polari First Book Prize in 2022 Adam’s work has won numerous British Podcast Awards, including podcast of the year in 2024 and Best Sex and Relationships podcast for the series, press play turn on. He also won the best new podcast Gold Award in 2024 Adam hosts the weekly podcast free sex, and is co director of the podcast production company and Nell, which makes mostly documentaries. In 2022 he wrote and produced a film we can’t see for the BBC. He describes himself as a promiscuous writer and producer who loves wonderful ways that queer artists create new worlds for us all. Today, Adam is going to talk about our fetish for feet and other pleasures.

JOE KORT 1:19
Welcome Adam.

ADAM ZMITH 1:20
Thank you, Joe. It’s great to be here. Thank you

JOE KORT 1:24
so great to have you here, and it’s a great resume. You’ve done a lot of good

ADAM ZMITH 1:27
stuff. Yes, it’s funny when you hear someone read all that back to you, it’s great. I am tired,

JOE KORT 1:35
right? And you’re young guy too to be doing.

JOE KORT 1:39
And the way I came across you was your book, Soul Mates, and I just loved it. I thought it was really thorough, really well researched and really accessible. And so I thought I gotta have you on here, and let’s talk about it. Great. Let’s talk about it. All right. So why did you write it soulmates, and why did you write it about foot fetishes?

JOE KORT 1:57
What is it? Why?

ADAM ZMITH 1:58
Well, you know what? I have a foot fetish, and that’s interesting to me, and I figured that it would be interesting to other people, and I think that I wouldn’t have written it if I hadn’t already written a book about poppers, which was deep sniff. I wrote that first and really, really enjoyed writing that. And then that was my first book, and then going, like, out on the road and and talking about it and sharing it in in bookshops, in talks, on panels, and sometimes in nightlife spaces as well. Like I do quite a bit of work, like performing my work, or like doing things that are mixed, you know, performance and reading literature and stuff like that. And so I kind of met a lot of people who really engaged with that book about poppers, and they would like, basically just tell me their stories about poppers. So that was great. That was fun. And it was really just pleasing to me as a writer to have that. So I thought, how can I get that again? What was it about the poppers one that made that work? And why did I enjoy that, and why did people engage with it? And it was because, well, I like pop. Was because, well, I like poppers, and it’s interesting to me the history. So then I thought, what else is there that would meet that bar? And for me, it was the obvious answer, was feet, because I also really like feet. And I thought it would be fun to write, and then it would be fun to like, go out on the road and have those conversations again, and do podcasts as well like this. So that was, I think that was why I did it. And also, and then, I guess the second thing is, just because feet are a big part of our erotic interests and our and our history of desire, really. But similarly, with paupers, like not that many people know very much about that. So there was a kind of journalistic thing there, of like, Huh? There’s something to find out here.

JOE KORT 3:45
Now those are going to be listeners here that don’t know what poppers are.

JOE KORT 3:49
What are they? Can you just briefly describe them? Yes,

ADAM ZMITH 3:51
of course, poppers is the sort of like slang name or the street name for a group of chemicals which are alkyl nitrites. That’s the family. And then there are different substances within that, like Amyl nitrite being the most famous and it’s a it’s a liquid that you buy in a little brown bottle, which is not sold to you for human consumption in places like the US and the UK. It’s often sold as leather cleaner, but you don’t need to clean your leather with it. With it with the reason why people buy it from sex shops is that they sniff the vapor that’s rising from the liquid from the bottle. They don’t touch the liquid or drink the liquid. And it gives you a little high, and it relaxes your muscles, and it disinhibits You, and it’s so and it lasts for like, a minute or two. So it’s a quick, cheap, legal, mostly legal high, and it’s really good during sex, and it’s often, it’s been a big part of like, gay sex for decades, for a century, really,

JOE KORT 4:53
how did you get comfortable? Because people, I get a lot of clients as a sex therapist, right, who have a foot fetish and they struggle. Struggle revealing it to me, revealing it to partners. Here you are talking about it, publicly, filming it, you know, the whole thing with me. How did you get comfortable talking about,

ADAM ZMITH 5:09
I don’t know, it took a long time. I mean, everything’s taken a long time for me. I didn’t have sex until I was 29 you know. So, like, I think, yeah, it took a long time. I have to, like, think about things a lot, and I have to explore things intellectually a lot before I get comfortable with things that that is easier now the older I get, but with feet, I think it was just like, the more sexual partners I had, and the more that I just tried to say, like, oh, you know, like, your feet are really hot. Like, can I play with them? And I just, I didn’t really have any bad reactions. You get some guys who are like, like, neutral on it, or they’re like, Well, I’m not really into that, you know, that kind of thing. But just talking gently and finding people for whom it would be like, Yeah, okay, they might not be into it, but they’re like, into the way that I’m into it, you know. So just basically finding good, communicative sexual partners to do that with, and then that just helped me to feel more comfortable with it myself, I guess. And then I guess again, going back to talking about poppers, I mean, there’s, you know, in deep Smith, there’s literally a chapter which is about me wanking. So like, I guess going through that experience and writing about that, and then putting that out there in the world just made me think, like, Okay, well, I can also write the thing about feet and talk about feet. And in a way, as a writer, you’ll know this. Sometimes you just kind of have to say, I have to do this like, this is the subject that interests me, and I’ve got to have something to write about, and this is it, because it interests me.

JOE KORT 6:49
Yes, all of my stuff is pretty niche because those are my interests. And I’ve always wanted to be more popular or more successful than I kind of am. But then people say, well, then write about more popular but I don’t care about the more popular stuff. I care about the things I care about which are the niche things. So it’s kind of like

ADAM ZMITH 7:06
yours, but it’s also what’s interesting about soulmates in this book, was how when I was working on the proposal, talking about it with my agent, talking about it with editors who work for publishing companies, and sending around a proposal. The original idea was a much deeper, longer book, and part of the proposal said, you know, like, around about one in six or one in seven people have fantasized about feet. This is not a rare phenomenon, and it’s also pretty well represented in like media, like often. I mean, well, in terms of like, volume, like it like like, people know that this is a fetish that people have. It’s not like a secret thing that people don’t know. Often it’s represented in a negative way or a shaming way, right, which is a problem, but nevertheless, it’s kind of there, and it’s quite common, and it’s not even that controversial. But yet, a lot of publishers, well, all but one said that this is too niche a topic. We’re not going to publish a book on this. It’s it’s too niche. That’s pretty much what all the ones who rejected it said. And then actually, one publisher said, like, actually, it’s too mainstream. So I don’t know whatever I found one I found the one publisher that was just like, we are so into this, let’s go,

JOE KORT 8:19
yeah, that reminds me of my book. I wrote a book about straight men who have sex with men. They’re not gay, they’re not bi. That’s a whole other topic. But Noah, first of all, in 2008 I could get no publisher. I had an agent and everything. Finally, in 2014 I found one, only one would be willing to talk some of these, these publishers, it’s whatever, it’s whatever was was going to sell more. You know, yeah, yeah.

ADAM ZMITH 8:41
Which I get it they, they gotta be sure of an audience. I mean, it’s really hard to make an audience and to make a money out of and even cover the costs in book publishing, right?

JOE KORT 8:50
All right. So what does your book reveal about our fetish for feet? It

ADAM ZMITH 8:55
reveals the fact that we’ve, as long as we’ve been having sex, we’ve had a fetish for feet. Like, as long as we’ve been, like making pictures, drawing pictures of each other, we’ve been drawing our feet, obviously, because they’re a part of our body, but we’ve also represented the feet in, like, erotic pleasure. And this is true in like, lots of different cultures over lots of different times. And there are entire cultural practices like foot binding in China, which was going on for a millennium, and that is very much about control and power and domination and maintaining a gender difference, but it is also an erotic practice, and was and so that is just like a big, kind of just a big area to explore. And then also in the Bible, you’ve got Jesus washing his disciples feet, which I say, you can’t separate out the love that he’s showing there in that story from other kinds of love, like, it’s just a way that people that he’s showing his humility and his love for his like his brothers, basically. Exactly, which is hot to me, because it’s kind of homoerotic, right? But it’s also about, yeah, showing love and feet are a thing which can help us to do that for each other. So those are just two examples. But apart from that, there are like, out and out erotic things. You know? There’s pictures and drawings and cartoons and everything from lots of different places where people are like sucking toes and poems from them, from the Middle Ages, you know, love poems to feet. And so it just revealed that our fetish has been there for a really long time. That was kind of number one. Another thing that it revealed was just how our desire for feet became like a shameable desire. And I think that that for me anyway, and I make the argument in the book that like that came from a lot of the early sexology that was going on in the late 19th century, and then some early psychoanalysis in the 20th century, of how, and I’m interested in your take on this point, but how a lot of sexual practices were classified as deviant or as abnormal, even when they were not shamed, they were classified as like, aberrant, in some way, different in some way from the normal thing, which I guess is peanut and vagina, right? And so I think that that if you track through sexology and psychoanalysis, there is this like creation, that there is a shame around it, and I think that that’s what we’re all still living with today. I think things are changing a little bit, especially around feet, but that was just another thing that was interesting to me. I

JOE KORT 11:35
agree, and I also think things are changing around kink, right? And people understanding that it’s not just because people want to think of intercourse as the main event, right? It’s foreplay and after play. And I think that’s why a lot of these psychologists, these early psychologists that you talk about, and sexologists you know, decided this was abhorrent and something deviant and unusual, because they the prize was the PIV sex, right? Yeah, that’s the case for some people. Some people, feet is, is the main, main event,

ADAM ZMITH 12:04
right? And, I mean, I think Freud is a really interesting one here. You know, because Sigmund Freud, by the time that he did address fetishes and including feet, he had developed his whole theory around the Oedipus complex, and about it was very much centered on, like, what do young developing men fancy, and why do they fancy the things that they fancy? And, you know, he comes up with the Oedipus complex of, like, you know, seeing that he has good he’s got a penis. His mother doesn’t have a penis, and he that scares him. And then his dad does have a penis, and there’s the jealousy of the dad, and then the whole thing. And like, regardless of, like, whether you whether you put stock in that theory or not, when he had that theory. So then, when he came to write about fetishes, and specifically feet, he was like, How do I fit this into my overarching theory? And then, well, the foot is just a substitute for the penis. That’s what it has to be, because everything’s penis centric in my world. So the foot has to be a penis. And I’m like, Well, you know what Sigmund like, I don’t need the foot to be a sort of street for the penis, because I have sex with people with penises. Like, I can play with the I can play with the penis as well, and also enjoy the foot, because it’s a foot, and I fancy feet. That’s it.

JOE KORT 13:20
Like, I love it. I love it. It’s that simple.

ADAM ZMITH 13:24
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I mean, Far be it for me to, like, criticize Freud as an overthinker, because I am a pretty big overthinker myself, and a deep thinker, and, like, coming up with theories and analyzes and stuff like that. And I think that’s a valid exercise. But it was just funny to me that he stretched so hard to make the foot into a substitute penis.

JOE KORT 13:45
I do know that some people have such a strong foot fetish they’d rather get a foot pick than a dick pics. There

ADAM ZMITH 13:50
you go. There you go. Some people want a foot in the ass. You know,

JOE KORT 13:53
that’s right, that’s right.

JOE KORT 13:56
Isn’t foot fetish up there one of the top fetishes that are Googled, yeah,

ADAM ZMITH 14:00
yeah, definitely, it’s really high up there. It’s up there with, like, with group sex, with threesomes, with really commonly, like, racialized, fetishized bodies and practices which are really, which, which can be really, quite common. Yeah, it’s really, really high up there. And also, there’s been, in recent years this, like, outpouring of content, because it’s a relatively quote, unquote, like safe kind of content, in the sense that, first of all, like lots of people can, like, take videos and photos of their feet and put them out there, and they’re not identifiable because their face aren’t in them. So people are selling it that way. And also, it doesn’t contravene any community guidelines, because there’s no genitals, so you can even there, like, there’s entire, you know, there’s an entire ecosystem of Instagram, which is sock picks and foot picks and trainers and stuff like that. And it’s basically, you know, sex content, right? I mean, we can debate what sex is, but it’s basically sex. Content. It’s basically porn for the people who like that stuff, but it doesn’t contravene the quite strict guidelines that Instagram has and other platforms as well. So there’s been this outpouring of content as well. I know

JOE KORT 15:12
when people look at that and say, What’s sexual about that? Well, it might not be for you because you’re not into feet, but for people who are right, and then some people, it’s so many different right, like you said, the trainers, the socks, some people just want to look at a foot. Sometimes it has to be attached to the person, you know, like, there’s, everybody’s got their

JOE KORT 15:27
own specific thing around,

ADAM ZMITH 15:28
right? Exactly, yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s, that’s another thing that’s, I hope, conveyed in the book is, like, it’s a whole universe of pleasure, really. And just in the same way that people have different types, you know, like they’re like an ass person or a tape person, or like a blonde or brunette person, whatever it is, like, it’s the same with feet.

JOE KORT 15:48
Totally, totally, some people, all right, so, oh, did you notice a difference between heterosexual and homosexual interest in feet, or was there not that part of your book? Yeah,

ADAM ZMITH 16:03
I mean, it’s, it’s, I can’t remember if it’s in the book. It’s not, it’s not like a full part of the book or anything. But it might be mentioned that there is definitely, like the people. There is some research that that basically men who have sex with men get in, I think, specifically identify as gay men or BI men, they are like the most likely category to declare a faci and then it’s like straight men, and then it’s queer women, and then it’s straight women. So, so there’s kind of a gender difference going on there, at least in terms of like people declaring themselves to surveys, and you know, that’s kind of all that we have there. And definitely, I just noticed from my own like world, my own practices, that that lots of gay and bi men like playing with feet, that’s true. And there are lots of different dynamics in that. And sometimes that can be like relatively vanilla, but sometimes it can be a bit like dominant and submissive. But when it comes to like men and women playing with feet, it’s very common that the man is a submissive, that that it’s a that it’s a dominant, submissive dynamic, and that the man is a submissive and the woman is a dominant. And so that’s another interesting, I guess, like phenomenon really, is that there is difference there in terms of the sexualities and the genders,

JOE KORT 17:30
right? The foot is like a form of dominance or humiliation. And I totally agree that you see more straight or women doing it to men, where men are the submissive. There are videos, and there is stuff out there about men doing it to women, but it’s much

ADAM ZMITH 17:43
less, yeah, exactly. And I think in the in the world where it’s a female dominant and a male submissive, the shoes are often very prominent, like high heels, leather boots, these kind of these are, like classical images, a man like, wants this really strong, powerful and painful stiletto heel to be like, completely dominating him, and he’s on the floor and his dominatrix, his mistress, is over him. Or he wants to, just, like, worship her. He wants to, like, lick those boots, maybe if she lets him, he wants to remove the boots and lick and worship her feet. Yeah,

JOE KORT 18:25
right enough. And the heel is used as, almost like a penis. Right where she’s She is She he’s forced to suck it, yeah? And

JOE KORT 18:32
the toes, yeah, exactly. Now,

JOE KORT 18:34
one of the things is, and then we’ll I want to ask you some other questions, but one, this is so close to the whole financial domination scene, yeah, the poppers and the feet, did you know together? Yes, yeah, it’s a whole thing. Can you know,

ADAM ZMITH 18:48
yeah. I mean, I don’t know so much about financial domination, except the basics of it that you know, there is just this explosion of activity over the past couple of years, really, the past few years, where people are the Finn Dom, the dominant person, and they’re basically forcing their submissive to, like, send the money. And then it’s not so much that they’re like, performing, it’s not so much that the dominant then performs a service for that money, like, you know, a dance or something. It’s like the performance is the performance of being dominant. And like, I deserve this money because you’re my submissive, and you do not deserve to have that money. You deserve to send that money to me because you’re pathetic and and that money should be with me below my feet. You’re and you’re below my feet. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

JOE KORT 19:46
Rope. ESM without rope. It

ADAM ZMITH 19:49
is, that’s right. And, I mean, I think that there’s a lot of people who are, like, thinking, like, Hey, this is great. I can, like, get rich doing this, and I don’t have to work. And there are some people who are, I mean, it is. Work. It’s sex work for those people who are doing it as work. And there are lots of people who, I’m sure there are lots of people who are, like, really successful at it, but I also think there’s probably a lot of people who are just, like, having a go and it being like, kind of not really working for them, but I don’t know, but good for them for trying and like, it’s interesting, like, is it like, it’s one of those things in sex where it’s like, how much of this is performance, and how much of it is like a sexual act, and the performance of it becomes a sexual act, you know?

JOE KORT 20:31
And I’ve noticed with my clients, the straight clients, that and the gay clients, it gives them access to each other, gay men with straight men, because you’re just touching their feet. You’re just worshiping their feet. You’re giving them money. So what? You’re being sexual with a straight guy without having to touch genitals or have anal sex.

ADAM ZMITH 20:47
That’s right, yeah. I mean, there is, I interviewed a guy when I was doing research about his experience of basically finding guys on Instagram who pose pictures straight guys, who post pictures of themselves after football with their football socks and football trainers. And then he DMS them and says, like, how much do you I really want those socks? How much you know, don’t clean them. Please send them to me. How much do you want for them? And these guys wrap them in plastic and send them. And I don’t know whether, with those straight guys, whether they are like, straight guys just living their life, like posting pictures on Instagram, and occasionally there’s, there’s their feet or their sock in them, and how much of them are like, I know that there are gay guys who are going to want to buy these socks for me. So like, this is like, my persona on Instagram, and I’m not even straight actually, like, but they don’t need to know that, you know, right, right?

JOE KORT 21:44
All right. So let’s talk about your free sex podcast. What’s your intention with it? And tell us about

ADAM ZMITH 21:48
it. Well, I want to build a world where everyone can have the sex that they want. Basically because I just feel like we’re all held back from sex in lots of different ways. I held myself back for 29 well, until I was 29 Well, I say, held myself back. There are other people to blame for that, including, like government, policies and culture and some things to do with my parents and other things around me. And then, you know, since I’ve been having sex, there are other things that occasionally hold me back from sex, like I might get an STI, and then I have to get it treated. And fortunately, I’m in a place where I can get it treated and for me to have my sexual health. But then there’s a period where I can’t have sex because of that. And you know, these are quite simple, basic bacterial infections like gonorrhea, and we do not yet have a vaccine for something like that. And I wonder why we have, we came up with a vaccine in, you know, kind of overnight for COVID, not literally overnight, but overnight in the terms of how long it normally takes to develop a vaccine. We were like, This is a top priority. We got to do this, and we were right to do that. But, you know, we’ve had gonorrhea for hundreds and hundreds of years, and we’ve we still don’t have the vaccine. There are some technical difficulties. But anyway, the fact is, I just think that that reveals what our priorities are in terms of our health and how sexual health is in there. So that’s another thing that holds us back. So what I wanted to do with the podcast was interview a different person every week who has a different idea for how we can build that world of free sex. And some of them are people talking about, let’s we need all of the vaccines for all the STIs. And some of them are talking about, we need to massively de shame everyone, and we do that through better sex education. And some of them talk about, we need more easier licensing laws for venues where people can have sex. You know, I live in London, there’s a pub on every street corner. There’s a pub for every night of the week if you want, because alcohol is a thing that we do, and just going to the pub is a thing that we do regularly, and it’s just a part of our culture, and we do it openly, like there’s not a sex club on every street corner. And in fact, they’re really quite limited in number because of licensing and things like that. So some people say we need to change that regulatory system so that more people can have more sex that they want. You know? So that’s really what the podcast is. It’s trying to collect a different idea every week on how we can build that world. I’m

JOE KORT 24:14
with you 100% with that. What are the challenge some of the challenges you face writing about sex and working as an independent writer and producer. Oh, well,

ADAM ZMITH 24:24
it’s quite hard sometimes to,

ADAM ZMITH 24:28
I think, like, build an audience for something when you’re doing the kind of stuff that I do, which is, like, I think you can build an I think it’s easier to build an audience for something where you’re talking about the sex itself, like a podcast where people share their sex stories and their gossip, or where they’re talking about how to do it, like, there’s a, you know, we’re both part of the sex podcast ecosystem, and there’s a lot bigger podcasts than ours. I mean, yours is, like, definitely way bigger than mine. Like, I. But there’s ones really, really big ones which are kind of like people talking about the sex that they have, and people talking about, like, sex tips and stuff. Whereas, if you’re talking about sex in a way that you might talk about it, or I might talk about it in this quite like, hopefully, like, thoughtful way, and also engaging in politics and society and religion and like ideas, then I think that’s quite that, that just seems to be, like, quite, quite niche, I guess, even though it shouldn’t be, because we’re talking about a thing that, like every, you know, almost everyone does or wants to do. So I think that’s one thing. Another thing is censorship. Like, you know, I don’t make a lot of visual work, but I know a lot of artists and makers that make visual work, and it’s really hard for them to build an audience online when Instagram is where it’s at, but they their work is censored because it’s got some genitals in it, and it might not even be like, quote, unquote pornography. It might just have, like, nudity and stuff like that. So that’s quite hard. And then I think the other thing is, just as a writer, well, I guess, yeah, Podcast Producer as well, like, it’s hard to get, you know, unless you have a really, really big audience, and unless you have, unless you make a lot of money, it’s hard to buy yourself the time to do the writing. I don’t have any other kind of job. I do lots of different jobs that are all in this kind of area. I give talks, I write things, I make podcasts. I produce other people’s podcasts. I do audio editing, I and I get grants and funding by myself or with other people. But it’s always a bit of a slog being independent. When you don’t have people, you don’t have enough people that want to directly buy the thing that you want to sell. Yes, people are directly buying the book. The percentage is really low, which is an industry thing. It’s nothing to do with me, but it’s an industry thing, like, in terms of how much percentage I get when you buy a book. So, yeah, like the basically, I guess what I’m saying is the some summary of what I’m saying. There is the market doesn’t value this work enough.

JOE KORT 27:09
I agree with that. What are you working on now? And I heard that you’re working on a musical.

ADAM ZMITH 27:13
Yes, it’s true. I am working on a musical. There is a, there is a queer bookshop in London that’s been going since 1979 it’s called gaze, the word it’s an amazing place. It’s like the oldest LGBTQ bookshop in the UK, nearly the world, maybe. And in 1984 it was subject to a censorship raid where customs officers used a very old Victorian law to try to stop this bookshop from importing gay and lesbian books from outside the country so they could sell them to queer people in the UK. And so they tried to stop that. The bookshop fought back. The community fought back, and the case was dropped eventually. And so this was like a huge victory for censorship in the UK, a huge, huge victory against censorship in the UK, and a huge victory for freedom of expression, and specifically, like queer artistic expression and books. And so me and a bunch of other people think it makes for a really good musical also, because the customs officers are quite hapless, and it’s quite fun to make kind of like government state agents quite hapless and camp in a musical. And also it’s about a bunch of booksellers who were kind of at each other’s throats, arguing about politics and whether this book was feminist enough and that book was anti religious enough, before the State kind of clamped down on them. So it’s quite a fun story. There’s a bunch of amazing people who are the real people. You know, our characters are based on the real people. And, yeah, we’re just working on it now. It’s another thing that’s going to take some time to build and get a full production on in London, and then hopefully a tour later on. But it’s pretty exciting and fun.

JOE KORT 29:02
Well, you have a lot of energy and a lot of great ideas, and you’re smart, and really, the book was great. I’m so glad I found it and found you. What else would you want everyone to know before we come to an end that we didn’t share about you? Oh, about me.

ADAM ZMITH 29:16
I like a glass of whiskey, you know, if anyone wants to, if anyone sees me out and about, buy me a glass of whiskey, or, if it’s the daytime, a coffee with a with a sugar free caramel shot. And I guess people can find me at my website, which is adamsmith.com it’s, it’s like Smith, but with a Z, so you say, like Smith. And I just kind of made that up because my name is too generic otherwise, and it’s fun to say Smith with a Z, and that’s where they can find me.

JOE KORT 29:46
Thank you, Adam, thank you so much. It was a pleasure having you on my show.

ADAM ZMITH 29:50
Thank you, Joe. It’s been a pleasure talking to you. I really appreciate it, all right.

JOE KORT 29:55
And those of you that are listening, you can hear more on my podcast at Smart sex, smart love. Dot com, and you also can follow me on Twitter, Tiktok, Instagram and Facebook. My handle is at Dr. Joe court, D, R, J, o, e, K, O, R, T, or you can go to my website. Joe court.com, thanks for listening and stay healthy and happy, and we’ll see you next time you